let's make a deal

[davemerrill]

So apparently there's a fan group (thanks kikaiju) called "The Anime Defense Project" that's started a website called "Keep Anime Alive" devoted to supporting the R1 anime industry by convincing people that they need to spend all the money they can on the R1 anime industry. Okay, fine, R1 anime industry, what do you have for me to spend money on?

Do you have SPACE BATTLESHIP YAMATO RESURRECTION? Do you have SHIN MAZINGER SHOUGEKI Z-HEN? No you don't. You have cybernetic schoolgirl murderers, you have motorcycle people murdering murderous cybernetic corpses, something called "Needless" (finally, truth in advertising), you have a sequel to a show that involves connecting the plots of four other shows ( During their journey, the group discovers that Syaoran is in reality a clone imbued with half the heart of the original Syaoran. Several years ago, Fei-Wang took the original Syaoran prisoner and created the clone to collect Sakura's feathers. Finally breaking free of Fei-Wang's hold, the half heart sealed within his clone returns to rendering the clone emotionless and a puppet to Fei-Wang's will, causing him to betray the group. ). SOLD!! There's IKKI TOUSEN in which our heroine shrugs off her shredded skirts and tattered tops with a flurry of busty badassery while fighting to unite seven rival schools and there's GUN X SWORD, about which one reviewer said "The first eight episodes do almost nothing to advance the plot, and the later ones feel padded with repetitions, mawkish sentimentality, pointless subplots, fan service cleavage shots, and endless nattering." SOLD!!!

And of course we should continue to spend money on DRAGONBALL Z - who cares if you've already bought all eleventy-thousand episodes, buy 'em again! The R1 industry needs your money! - and CASE CLOSED and FULL METAL ALCHEMIST. Just open that wallet up and start shovelling that cash out for things you already own. Why you will have to get a second job to pay for it all, and that will cut into your anime-watching time, but it's worth it to keep the R1 anime industry alive! They'd do it for you, you know.

In fact I will soon be starting the group "The Dave Defense Project" featuring the website "Keep Dave Alive". I'll be selling comics you don't want and videos you've already seen, but dammit, you have to keep me alive or I might not one day potentially bring you something you find interesting! Can we afford to take that chance?

I just have one question for the R1 anime industry, and that is, do you have any plans to make money that don't involve selling physical DVDs? Because "selling physical DVDs" is going away, and as a character in MESSAGE FROM SPACE said, "There's nothing you can do to change that."

But if you want MY money, you have to actually SELL ME THINGS I WANT. And I don't want DRAGONBALL Z or your flurries of busty badassery or anything by CLAMP, and you can't guilt me into thinking otherwise.

Comments

[redneckgaijin.livejournal.com]

To be perfectly honest, I've been running the KEEP KRIS ALIVE movement for several years now...

[childings.livejournal.com]

I would still rather own a dvd than a file because it feels more tangible to me. And I like the packaging. But I agree that nobody is licensing anything I want to buy.

And to be honest, I am pretty excited about the remastered Utena dvds that are coming out from Right Stuf, but mostly because the Software Sculptors dvds were pretty terrible and now the first season boxset is really hard to find (and I'm still missing it).

[redneckgaijin.livejournal.com]

And I'd rather own DVDs because:

* Even on DSL it takes forever to download anything as big as a video file;
* Video-on-demand lasts only as long as licenses;
* It's easier to loan a DVD, or take a DVD somewhere with a player, than it is to loan a massive video file or show it on non-computers.

[childings.livejournal.com]

Well, with flash drives it's possible to bring files with you, but everybody's media setup is different so it's a lot faster to just put a dvd or bluray in a machine than to hook a computer up to a tv, and run the file (that's only if everything is compatible)

Also, like I said, I like packaging. My Diebuster dvds were insanely expensive, but I really liked the booklet that came with the dvds with all the interviews and character design images inside. It's silly but whatever

I think the main problem is that anime fans in North America are all too young and they all have terrible taste. I'm still waiting for R1 releases of the first Lupin III series (from 1971 -- I have a HK bootleg and the entire show on vhs fansub, and yes I will shell out more money for a proper R1 release if that ever happens) and Future Boy Conan (I guess it doesn't even matter that it's Miyazaki). If R1 anime companies were selling stuff I wanted to buy, I would buy it

[sobieniak.livejournal.com]

Both excellent programs that deserve our attention.

[damerell.livejournal.com]

It's about time.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

I feel your pain, and you know I'm mostly on the same page.

However, a minor correction if I may. While Hollywood pushes 'nobody buys DVDs anymore!' hard within the industry, the truth is two-pronged.

a. Nobody buys DVDs is actually 'nobody buys what they consider to be overpriced DVDs', the value of media has been driven down by the deep discounting actions of the Big Boxes. It's the same business model that killed the music industry, deep discounting key new releases while keeping catalog at high MSRP. Oh, there's lots and lots of talk about 'volume' and so on and that's valid, but the reality is none of that matters to the average person.

TRSi sells Dirty Pair for, what, $50 for 13 episodes? (I don't mean the pre-order price, I mean right now and yes, there might be sales and discounts for members and blah blah, to have a meaningful discussion we have to address MSRP) (anyway). That's not too bad a price, we can all agree it's much better than 4 single disc releases at $29.99 MSRP. It's still too much. Harsh reality is, $50 is a lot of money for half a series of *GASP* an old show. Heck, Media Blasters was selling those three disc books for Tekkaman Blade at $29.99 originally and dropped to $19.99 pretty quick, and those have something like 15 or 18 episodes each!

Of course, that takes me to my second part, people can't buy it if there's no place where they can buy it. I know I've beaten that horse past death but it's true. Best Buy is about done as far as being a source for anime (down to 8 linear feet and mostly bare, mainly Funi titles stocked), the only retailer with any kind of selection is Transworld/FYE, and there's no telling how long they will last.

Borders will be dead soon, they're in the last gasp mode now. This mainly affects the manga crowd but they used to have decent DVD stock at one time. So that's gone.

Price is the only factor that matters to most. Make it cheap and it'll sell if you can get it out to people.

Tell you a tale, direct observation. Remember the film 'The Big Red One'? WW II drama starring Mark Hammill and Lee Marvin? Sam Fuller's last film? Well, there was a 2-disc special edition with the film recut to Fuller's original cut, and it was part of a 'war movie dump' that Walmart got. 12 copies. $5. Five Dollars US for what was a $28 MSRP release. Gone in a couple of days. Are there really that many people who burn to watch that movie? Dunno, but clearly $5 was the trigger point. I hate myself for thinking it'd be there when I returned because I spent my little pocket change for the 2-disc 12 o'clock high and 2-disc Patton at $5 each. (they were both gone too, BTW. 24 copies of each of those in the dump. Yes I checked).

Walmart goes thru a TON of $5 DVDs. meanwhile 200 copies of Avatar at $24.99 sit and sat until they were returned.

It's all perception. When they had the 5 disc Blade Runner at $15 I begged mom to buy it. When they had the 2-disc edition of 2001 for $5 I grabbed it. I would have paid more had I the money back in the day but damn, I can't resist those kind of prices.

The hope for physical media seems to be manufacture on demand. The fact that I can buy both The Green Slime and The World, The Flesh and The Devil from Warner Archives makes me giddy. Best of all, no pressure and fear of missing out! Unlike damn ADV and those last three Dunbine DVDs

[warpig1979.livejournal.com]

Worth noting in regard to FYE: it blows my mind that they still stock anime, because if you ever actually look at their anime racks, you'll wonder if they ever moved a single anime DVD. They sell everything at MSRP, no discount a la Best Buy. They're a fascinating time capsule of the boom years, you'll still see shit like Doki Doki School Hours that's been sitting there priced at $29.99 a disc for, I dunno, five years and counting.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

That's one of my complaints, because FYE is just going down the same path that Suncoast went. It's the same problem with bookstores.

The only way to compete with the 'threat' of Amazon and 'the internet' (as is one of the common screeds that pops up in the industry) is to suck it up, understand that prices are just out of line with what consumers want to pay, and CUT PRICES. Chop them, right across the board. Industry needs to narrow their margins, retailers need to give incentives and in a time when Hollywood STILL thinks $28.99 is the 'correct' MSRP for MAJOR NEW RELEASE DVD (which is then discounted to $14.99-$19.99 at mass retailers), release those titles at $19.99 and discount them from THAT point.

It's like CDs. There's no rational way that any CD should be priced at $18.99. Why is it that price if I want to buy the soundtrack to 'Once Upon a time in Mexico' when that new Cee-lo CD is $8.99? Effect? "Soundtracks don't sell, catalog doesn't sell" well, DUH.

Ranty ranty ranty.

[sobieniak.livejournal.com]

I'm of the opinion $19.99 should be the MSRP too for these DVD's. Certainly the end of these stores is probably not going to be remembered by any, but for me, it'll be one less place I loved going to (miss Media Play myself).

[sobieniak.livejournal.com]

Price is the only factor that matters to most. Make it cheap and it'll sell if you can get it out to people.

In theory, you'd think they understand that.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

and I neglected to mention that Media Blasters has picked up Mazinkaizer SKL. It's not Shin Mazinger but it sounds pretty fun.

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

Mazinkaizer SKL is pure excitement, and I will buy that in about two seconds.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

They said May back when, which means it'll probably get a two-month bump and we'll see it in July.

I wish Media Blasters would pick up Gorath. I have no idea if it was on their radar but given the good job they did with Atragon and Mysterians, I'd be 'down' with a MB release of Gorath.

But I'm Mr. Crazy and would buy a R1 release of 'The Last Dinosaur' like it was food.

[warpig1979.livejournal.com]

I'd just like to take the opportunity here to note that Ikki Tousen is probably the worst filmed anything I've ever seen.

Meanwhile, lemme think, Japanese cartoons I would dish out real money for... Um. Is anybody gonna license Giant Gorg any time soon? I think it's pretty much down to Giant Gorg and anything from the Mushi Pro experimental/indie/whack-ass period. I'd drop 20 bucks on Belladonna of Sadness in a hot second.

[childings.livejournal.com]

I would pay ridiculous 1996 prices for Giant Gorg on dvd if it existed. There's not even a complete fansub of it. WHYYYYYY

[animejump.livejournal.com]

Waiting patiently for Turn A Gundam, over here.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

Wasn't that supposed to be part of Bandai Ent. USA's slate of "Gundam Reborn!!" releases for 2010?

Did the Zeta Gundam movies get on DVD here? Wasn't that announced for, like, 2007?

Just saying, I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, contrary to any spin from Bandai. They're so completely focused on making inroads in the Pac Rim nations lately we stopped being relevant.

I still want Double Zeta. Fat flippin' chance.

[animejump.livejournal.com]

No, Bandai Entertainment's 2010 tentpoles were always the Eureka Seven movie in the spring and Haruhi Suzumiya S2 (and the Haruhi-chan OVAs) in the fall. They announced Turn A Gundam at SDCC, along with Tales from the Abyss. If it drops in 2011 (I could see it not hitting until 2012) it'll be in the fall, because their next big title is K-ON, and they usually try to get one big deal show out just before AX so they can maximize sales at that convention. (Amusingly, this year's edition of that title was the Zeta Gundam movies.)

The company is kind of hilariously broken, but they're one of the few that have announced something that I actually want, so I'll await the release with interest.

[kidfenris.livejournal.com]

My problem is that anime, like any other entertainment subdivision, doesn't have much worth owning. A bunch of it is worth seeing, but it's hard for me to buy and keep something that I'll probably watch twice in ten years' time. Le Chevalier D'Eon is a good example. I own it, I watched it, I liked it, and I told other people to check it out. But I don't think I'm going to return to it. Same thing with, say, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time. A good, enjoyable movie, but I'm OK if I never see it again.

And this isn't confined to those fancy-pants new anime things. It applies to just about any era. Giant Gorg? Hey, that's a fun show! Would I buy it on DVD? Nah. I'd rent it, watch it once, and then move on.

That said, I'd buy The Tatami Galaxy if FUNimation actually released it on DVD. They already streamed it, after all.

[sobieniak.livejournal.com]

Probably why I'm not much into it anymore for that reason. The anime fans had it coming though soon enough.

[(Anonymous)]

It's kinda interesting to me that in the beginning, "ownership" was essential. It was the only way to go if you were really into anime. Otherwise your only way to see it was at the occasional convention or at a friend's house. But even that was contingent on "ownership" of video copies.

Now that the stuff is much easier to get and we're practically glutted with it, ownership means very little. Lots of people have collections, and the only limit is how much you can store either physically or digitally.

But this is what we were all striving for, though, isn't it?

-Tim Eldred

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

But you're missing Dave's point, I think. It's not a question of the glut of stuff, it's the fact that to many of us it's not the right KIND of stuff.

Note that I on purpose exclude Chinese/Taiwan boots and fansubbing.

I think, at least for me, the sadness is from the lost opportunity. In the boom years, 2003-2005, there was a window that was open, where you could put just about ANYTHING on the shelf and it would sell. Lower prices would have driven sales even more. Bandai *could* have tapped into that Sunrise catalog and just flooded the market with stuff, and they could have completely dominated the market as long as the price was right. Few would pay $200 for a complete box set of Giant Gorg (sub only) but I bet more than 1000 (which today is a super good seller!) would have bit at $39.99. Bandai could have completely changed the game, breaking the back of the $29.99 single disc release and the growing stigma of the 'fear of old anime' . Didn't happen. Nobody had the vision.

Mind, we'd still be bitching, because Bandai wouldn't work a deal with VAP so we'd get Layzner but not the very important OAV that actually finishes the show...

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

My point is that I dislike people trying to guilt me into buying things I don't want. It's been tried with comic books and now it's being tried with Japanese cartoons, and it has an amazing track record of failure with me.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

That too. What's the point of buying endless MOE crap to 'support the industry' when instead of broadening the type of material brought over, it only cements the idea that this, whatever this may be, is really the only thing customers want.

It is a failure cycle.

[kidfenris.livejournal.com]

"In the boom years, 2003-2005, there was a window that was open, where you could put just about ANYTHING on the shelf and it would sell"

No, there wasn't. Those years were the reason the anime industry fell in the first place: most of the stuff released DIDN'T sell. That's when companies were putting out Goemon: Legend of the Mystical Ninja, Melty Lancer, Cybuster (which moved under a hundred copies), and other shows no one wanted. It was a perfect example of misguided supply meeting non-existent demand, and the industry paid for it.

And don't think for a second that it would've changed if Bandai had mined Sunrise's catalog for old series with no mainstream appeal or exposure. The industry would still have choked on unwanted product, and the only difference would be in finding Panzer World Galient and Bio Armor Ryger discounted and gathering dust next to Girls Bravo and Innocent Venus on the shelves at FYE.

That might be a more appealing discovery for the old-school bargain hunters, but it wouldn't have done the industry any good.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, the main thing I meant when I said 'it would sell' was to the retailers, who are in some ways the most important customer. We know the American anime industy pushed forward the mistruth during the VHS years that dubs HAD to be cheaper than subs because of volume, but the real truth was dubs were priced lower in order to get better buys and placement. There is no reason whatsoever that subbed VHS couldn't have been priced the same or even lower (to reflect the added cost and 'added value' of the dubbing work) but it didn't happen, because of (you knew I was going here) old playbooks and action lines that said "this is what we used to charge in the day of sub only, so we can't back down from that".

Retailers will always buy the cheaper item. If, during the boom years the anime companies had done across the board price cuts the market would have blossomed even more.

Can't happen now of course, there's no stores left that SELL anime. Well, almost.

[(Anonymous)]

I got Dave's point and agreed with it, but was observing something else about the changing nature of ownership in anime collecting.

Would I have bought my faves had they been released here in the heyday? Hell, yeah. I'd buy them now for premium prices, even. But the thing about the heyday is that you could put out anything and make money off it because it was a time of discovery when the demand was growing faster than the supply. Under those conditions, nobody drops their prices. Asking them to do so would have only gotten you funny looks, especially since they were probably paying huge licensing fees.

And most companies only look about a year ahead anyway. It would be nice if that were not the case, but that's a luxury. Always was.

I'd like to know if licensing fees have dropped at all now that supply outstrips demand. They must have, since prices are generally lower these days, right?

-Tim E.

[kikaiju.livejournal.com]

The problem with this stupid "Keep Anime Alive" thing is foremost that Anime is not dead.

So DVD sales are down. There's a good couple of reasons: fewer companies are still in business because they learned a hard lesson that people will not, in fact, buy everything put on a shelf. This change is good. What existed before was a false reality built upon unsound business practices.

And lately there are streaming sites offering up casual anime viewing for free. Legally. No DVD sales needed. Is there someone to blame for this? Probably.

Ultimately the issue is that the daily bookings are way down for actors who do dubs, but that's a reflection of market realities brought to the front now after a decade-plus of importers spending money left and right on dubs of things people didn't buy. The easy money has dried up. Companies are gone. Less stuff gets dubbed.

Various companies have realized that subs are cheaper to do, to. So that makes for starving voice actors.

OH CRY ME A RIVER!

Look back as far into history as you want. Acting has never come with a guaranteed paycheck. Actors always serve at the behest of whoever pays them. When the money goes away, so do the actors.

Traveling from con to con and trying to live off the guest stipends and well-wishes of groupies is not going to put much food on the table, and that's just the way it is. The answer is not to create a "Save my job!" website. The answer is, go find a regular job like everyone else.

The other problem with this "save the industry" thing is that the entire R1 anime industry could fall off the face of the earth, and the anime industry back in Japan would continue on largely as it is. It's not the healthiest industries but it does not need R1 that badly.

Meanwhile, without that industry turning out stuff, there would be NO R1 industry. All these guys care about is R1.

[(Anonymous)]

I bought Eden of the East, although I could have gotten the discs for free. I bought Baccano! But I respected those series and wanted to send the right message, however small. I also remember the 1990s, when a 26-episode series on VHS, often sold two episodes to the tape, could easily cost $300 and up (in '90s dollars)--sub or dub only, no special features, and, of course, VHS quality. Today's DVDs seem a good bargain by comparison.

--Carl

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry if that sounded a little dickish ^_^ What I meant was, I'm in the industry, so I can get comps, but I'm in the industry, so I also know the score--licenses cost money, adaptations cost money, marketing and distribution costs money. So when there's a title I like, I take care to buy it, rather than find excuses not to. Maybe I can't make them succeed by myself, but at least I'll have shown up to vote, as it were.

--C.

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

I have no problem paying money for things I like. I bought "Sea Prince & Fire Child" and that's not even a very good movie!

Back in the 1990s I bought almost ZERO anime. I think I bought the Voyager Be Forever and the AnimEigo My Youth In Arcadia on VHS. It wasn't until DVDs came along and made things cheaper that I started actually buying actual anime. And sure, I'm a cheap guy, but I was super broke throughout most of the 1990s.

Part of the problem is that the R1 industry seems to be aiming right directly at an audience of late teens and early 20s - EXACTLY the brokest-ass people in the world. You and me, we're boring old peoples with jobs, we can afford to buy DVDs. God forbid they'd try to sell things to the people who have money.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, you're right about the age demographics of R1, which is why I am grateful to those youths (pronounced Brooklyn, "yootes") who do buy it. This is also why I'm big on letters columns, even in tankobon; I want people to feel that they can be a part of the book, too. It may be possible to make other models succeed: I get the distinct impression Vertical's market is older, and not the standard manga readership (the fact many of their books are flopped is indicative of this; I'll submit that a manga that succeeds--i.e., finds an appreciative readership--flopped may be better than one that fails, unflopped). Even in Japan, of course, it's true that the highest-circulation manga magazines are meant for those college age and younger, as is much (nearly all, excepting otaku) of anime.

--C.

[animejump.livejournal.com]

Wait a minute, you BOUGHT anime, Carl? You're shattering my illusion of a Carl Horn who absorbs and retains all of the anime data he needs in his mind, leaving his modest studio apartment relatively spacious. You once told me that you kept a small collection because you "internalize"-- I wish I could internalize 800 DVDs.

Last thing I bought with money was the Dirty Pair sets. Just seemed like a colossal no-brainer to me.

Since you brought up Eden of the East, it reminds me of something I wonder about-- the volume of sales that anime conventions are responsible for. Funimation, at least, tend to sell out of several titles at every 'big' con they go to At NYAF, they brought several thousand EDEN OF THE EASTs a few days before street date, and sold every single one.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but even my buying of anime is abstract, because it's done as a symbolic gesture ^_^

If anime cons can be successfully used to launch DVDs (the right venue and opportunity will not always come together), it serves as one counterargument to a charge you often hear against cons these days--that they may be profitable as get-togethers, but they do nothing to help the industry (in particular, there were reports that painted NYAF as marginalized even within the larger New York comic convention). Also, this was Eden of the East, which can't be easily dismissed as pandering to squealing and glomping fans.

--C.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course, if you can find them.

OTOH back in the VHS days one didn't worry about how hard something might be to find, as stock was constantly refreshed and special orders were prompt. Of course once the retailers started their "we don't want long series" nonsense and vendors dropped volume numbers from the tapes, replacing them with names to make them seem like they're stand-alone movies, (cough cough ADV *hack ack* Blue Seed) finding the next volume proved to be a huge problem, ESPECIALLY if you had to special order it.

I never finished Blue Seed and Outlaw Star because of this. And I want the subbed VHS because I seem to be quite OCD on this issue. :)

[(Anonymous)]

Blue Seed! Well, when I get the chance, I'll see if I have any of the old ADV subs. That was their big project right before Evangelion; I remember covering it for Animerica. And you bring up the reason why many long anime (and manga) series in those days attempted to conceal the fact they were part of long series by using volume names instead of numbers.

--C.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

There's no hurry, Carl, but I thank you for the consideration! I thought it was so funny how bi-polar ADV was over the VHS release of Eva, they did do the volume names but they still had numbers. I suspect that may have been some contractual issue with Gainax, I dunno.

Of course one could suss out the volume by studying the product release number in tiny type on the spine and when I had to straighten shelves at Suncoast I used that, but that was useless when it came to special ordering!

It's funny how there was a 'perfect storm' that just spun the anime VHS time into crazyness- more long shows being released, the fear of long series by retailers, the 'any day now' emerging of DVD, how everybody just up and decided to stop carrying subbed VHS (again, price winning over everything)...crazy times :)

[ferricide.livejournal.com]

just popping in to say the obvious, i do support the R1 anime industry! when it publishes shit i want! this seems obvious. i bought eden of the east and am buying summer wars. and as mike says i will happily buy turn A!

duh?

[brakusjs.livejournal.com]

Right on, dude. If they have what I want, or if they can get it, I will eventually have it. You just gotta know where to look.

[brakusjs.livejournal.com]

Look, there's things from Japan that I wish would come over here too. No one wants to take a risk and bring them over since it's just a niche appeal and won't make much money over here. I lament that I can't buy any bara manga or artbooks and that I have to get stuff illegally sometimes. I personally have been wanting someone to license some manga titles that could do well if given the chance (KenIchi The Mightiest Disciple comes to mind), but since no one has done so yet, I've been reading scanlations. Shame on me, but no company wants any of my money that I would gladly fork over because no one has licensed it yet.

And even though nostalgia buffs like you lament about all the giant robot stuff that you can't buy, there are others that lament that they can't get more recent stuff like Maceoss Frontier legally since no one has licensed it here. I freely admit that the R1 industry I'd flawed. But if they have or get what I want, then they will get my money.

Support the R1/2/4 anime industry the way you want it to. Believe it or not, nobody is forcing you to buy DBZ or FMA or Ikki Tousen or whatever big-title-of-the-month is being advertised. Buy and cherish the things you like from the people that will give them to you at the right price, and perhaps more of it will be made or brought over for you..

Nobody is cramping on you for your choice of anime that you want. If you know where to go, you can find it and have it for you. And no one should make you feel guilty about your choices you make.