neglected

[davemerrill]

I neglected my AN staff duties yesterday and we went to the comic book show downtown. Didn't really pick up a lot of comics. The pickin's were a little slimmer than last time in terms of the weirdo stuff. Prices were all over the map. It pays to shop around. Canada scored their first goal while we were there and the entire room erupted with cheers, and one guy asked "Who scored?" with a response of WHADYA MEAN, "WHO SCORED?" But he meant the player, not the team.

Canada played the game they should have played earlier, tight and tough. Good thing too, because it was 'with your shield or on it' time for those guys.

I believe it was Deb Aoki who made the first comparison of the whole Nick Simmons "Incarnate" plagarizing "Bleach" thing with anime fans who distribute scanlations and fansubs online, or who sell licenced-character fanart in artist alleys at anime cons. Chris Butcher agrees, while Simon Jones - link may be NSFW does not.

I tend to agree with Simon Jones, who has an interesting take on the doujinshi side of things. I don't think professional American comic artist plagiarism and fans selling fan art or fans distributing scanlations or fansubs is anywhere close to being the same thing, and it's kind of disingenuous to equate the two, or to claim that anime fans shouldn't complain about this because they spend all their time ripping off copyrights. It's apples and oranges. What Nick Simmons did was plagiarism - passing off somebody else's artwork as his own work - something every professional artist is aware of and should be on guard against.

Using the Nick Simmons Experience to condemn fan artists for creating derivative works... well, the "fans creating derivative works based on their favorite characters" horse has been out of that barn for decades and decades now. Nobody seems to have a problem with it, even when Kirk and Spock were inventing the term "slash".

What people DO have a problem with is profit, and that's what makes Nick Simmons stand out - he's doing his ripping off in a professional comic book that he gets paid for, that is sold as a professional magazine in the marketplace of professional magazines. Which understandably is held to a higher standard than the artists alley at Doofuscon '09 or Fantastic Trekiverse Vol 6 #3, circulation 50.

The Artist Alleys of anime conventions are all different and they all have their own set of rules, but they all address the issues of IP theft and fair use, the issues of plagiarism and of swiping and of selling your own work. It's not a wild west free for all. The video rooms at anime cons get clearance for the titles they show. The dealers room contracts are very clear about what dealers are allowed to sell, and bootlegs are not allowed. So, to characterize all anime fans as being ignorant or uncaring about IP is false.

Do some anime fans download illegal fansubs or scanlations? Sure. All the time. Do some Marvel/DC fans download scans of their favorite comics? Sure. All the time. Do professional American comic artists sit behind their tables and sell sketches of Wonder Woman or Spiderman or Spawn or Donald Duck? Sure, all the time. Do fans of American movies download illegal copies of their favorite movies? Sure, all the time. Does this have anything to do with Nick Simmons swiping Bleach? Not a bit.

Personally I think selling 25 or 50 or 500 prints of your fanart is crossing the line into sketchy ethical territory. Of course back in the 1980s I thought charging to copy tapes was ethically sketchy too. And the guys that filled tables at every comic book show selling VHS copies of laserdiscs they taped themselves, those are guys that anime fandom campaigned against at every opportunity, and when we started our own shows those people were not allowed to sell bootlegs. (not that they didn't try). Considering at the start anime fandom wouldn't exist without home taping, without tape trading, without the same kind of copyright infringement we now look down on, it's ironic. But what separates the fans from the pros, or the fans from the criminals, in the final analysis, it's all money. Nobody ever got rich selling fanzines of fan art or fan fiction, and while they may be on ethically shaky ground, at least they aren't swiping like a goddamn 12-year old and trying to pass it off as their own work in a professionally printed and distributed comic book.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Since the topic of scanlations is being bandied about, this seems like a good place to solicit opinions. Sometime in the future I'm considering picking up where Viz left of with the Gundam The Origin manga, since I get it every month in Gundam Ace magazine (it's still running, probably will be for another year or two) and I have the resources to translate it. My daydream is to put it all online with full credit to the source. I wouldn't need to add my name, since it would be on my personal website.

Good idea or bad idea? I don't think there's a chance in hell anyone else will do it in any format.

-Tim E.

PS: the 'Captcha' code I had to type in order to post this reads 'atlanta said.' Coincidence???

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

well, just speaking for myself, I say that's not a good idea. I understand why you want to do that, the frustration that Viz wouldn't see it thru to the end(nor have a system in place to continue non-Naruto manga)and all that, but seriously, that becomes theft.

"What's the difference between that and fansubs?"

Exactly. They're both theft of the I.P., and just because you want it doesn't make it right. That's the entitlement mindset of the AmeriOtaku.

Consider, even if Viz isn't continuing with releasing it, they probably still have the rights. Yes, they are saying "we are big meanies and say you cannot have this" but it's their right.

So that's me.

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

If this was 1997 and you were going to run the translated manga in Animanga APA with a limited distribution to people who could be trusted to not make a buck off it, sure. Here in 2010, I would be leery of putting a project like this onto the public internets for the whole world to see.

A private members-only file-sharing server, or a friends-locked Livejournal post, something like that, that's a different story.

[(Anonymous)]

I kind'a think they'd already have the resources to do it on their own if they choose to. The fact that they haven't (so far) tells me the Viz edition didn't sell enough copies to continue publishing (duh), thus it's not attractive to someone else--especially since they'd have to pick it up in the middle. No, I'd say the chances of this being done professionally are zero.

[astrange.livejournal.com]

Has anyone ever accepted a deal like that? I've never of heard of it if so, though I know a few Bungie games are legitimately being kept up by fan groups. But I seriously doubt any Japanese company would do it.

(Besides, how do fansubs not provide "full credit to the source"? It's not like they edit out the author's name.)

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

There's also the fact that even if you do credit someone, you're still guilty of copyright infringement if you don't have the license to use it.

This discussion has ranged far afield from Nick Simmons, but I just want to point out that the whole "fansubbers are guilty of copyright infringement" argument has been brought up many many times in the decades of nerds arguing about the legality of copying shit they don't won. And the correct response is (a) so what, and (b) who cares.

I mean, no offense, but if not for fansubbers there wouldn't be an anime fandom. If not for fans doing what they liked with the video they like, we wouldn't have anime music videos or fan parodies or parody subtitles or most of the ouvre of Corn Pone Flicks, and most of what makes the fandom interesting would not exist.

If the only Japanese cartoons I was allowed to watch were the Japanese cartoons that various corporations had seen fit to release in North America, I wouldn't be an anime fan, because the mountains of absolute garbage released by these selfsame corporations would convince me that there wasn't anything worthwhile in the medium whatsoever.

I have done my time in the trenches protecting the copyrights of these corporations, and have never gotten so much as a 'thank you' from these guys, who instead send C&D letters about fansubs we didn't do, of things they didn't own.

Those interested in lengthy, incredibly boring and completely unproductive debates between different sets of non-lawyers are directed to visit Just About Every Anime Fan Internet Forum Ever, circa 2001. I could absolutely care less about the "legality" of fansubs, and would prefer fruitless debate take place somewhere far far away from me.

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

ALL the anime importers could close down, and it wouldn't affect me whatsoever. In fact, it would put anime fandom back where it was in 1990, except it would be a helluva lot easier to swap anime with each other. Anime conventions would go back to being small gatherings of like-minded enthusiasts instead of World's Biggest Douchebag competitions.

All the scanlations and filesharing and fansubbing didn't stop ADV and Geneon and Viz and Manga Entertainment and CPM and whoever from cramming retail shelves full of inept farted out junk. That's what killed the anime industry - it choked to death on its own greed, trying to sell forgettable TV detrius as high art. That'll kill any industry.

[davemerrill.livejournal.com]

See, it works out great for me. I watch what I want to watch. If they release it here, I buy it, and if they don't, I watch it anyway. They can make money off me, or not.

I get real tired of the mindset that we have to go out of our way and make special efforts to 'support' the activities of giant corporations, that we have to 'save comics', that we have to buy things we don't enjoy in the hopes that it will lead to something we do. It doesn't work like that, not for me.

[tochiro998.livejournal.com]

And that's where it gets really strange, because one has to remember that companies don't do things because they are 'right' or any nonsense like that, they do things because the return-on-investment says they can make a profit, and there's nothing wrong with making a profit.

Problem comes from when you're dealing with an entity that is only concerned by numbers, what you or I or anyone WANTS doesn't matter, because the only message understood is 'we make moneys now? y/n?'

So, support crap, and all that says is crap sells.

Boycott crap, all that says is "this crazy Japan shit is dead, stop releasing it"

Point being, since they are companies and not people, they cannot LEARN.

Oh, there might be someone in a company that actually cares and thinks all the nonsense we believe matters but in the end they still LISTEN to the numbers FIRST.

Avatar made a bazillion Dollars, just INSANE money. 3 years from now expect a flood of CG movies wanting to be the next Avatar. And they will SUCK because every studio will utterly miss the point. (i.e. it's not just effects, it's how they're used, and as trite as ripping 'Dances with Wolves' might have been as the story, at least it was a solid template familiar to the public)

(OTOH if Disney's John Carter of Mars movie turns out decent because they rethink it in light of Avatar I'll forgive them)